I'm on a role tonight.

So maybe God did use Lincoln to judge the United States just as He used Nebuchadnezzar to judge Judah.  But if that is the case, just as no Jew (used in the correct form, right Fluffy?) could blame Nebuchadnezzar for their trials, no citizen of the US could blame Lincoln for their trials.

And in the end, just as God humbled Nebuchadnezzar to let him know it was not he who was all powerful, I believe God humbled Lincoln as well. 

In a letter to Albert Hodges in 1864 where he recognizes the sin of the North as well as the South, Lincoln writes: "If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God."

But hey, what do I know?  I went to a government-school and am not smart enough to read the works of Greg Bahnsen!

Someone please confiscate his keyboard.

Note that Van Til was concerned about how North was attempting to apply the OT principles in question. (I share Van Til's concerns. North has done some amazing study and writing, helpful what I have read, but he has the reputation as a bit of an alarmist, the post-mil crowd's version of LaHaye and Hageeiioeeioo) Van Til did not argue against the abiding validity of the principles in question. There is a grand chasm between those who believe the principles are still valid and those who say the principles are no longer valid, a grand and deep chasm. (philosophical, mind you. They are still one in Christ.) However, those who believe the principles in question (and there are many to discuss) are still valid today WILL disagree on how to apply those principles. They stand on the same side of the philosophical canyon, where they can hear one another, work together, and constantly seek to see all of private, family, ecclesiastical, civil and business life more and more reformed under all of God's Word. Joe, for the sake of good communication: 1. What do you mean by "total depravity?" I have heard many different definitions from many different people. What do you mean? 2. How do you reconcile Matthew 5:17-20 with Ephesians 2:11-21 (particularly verse 15), in light of your belief that the Mosaic covenant has been abolished? (and, for clarity, what do you mean by the "Mosaic covenant" so we are on the same page of meaning) 3. In light of your thoughts regarding the "Older Testament" and "Newer Testament" ideas, how did Bahnsen define and justify his use of these terms? What did he mean by this? (related to this, do you believe it is an "extrabiblical" practice for men to use labels not in the Bible to describe what they believe are Biblical teachings? ie- Trinity, Reformed, Arminian, etc.) 4. Related to number 3 above, do you use the terms Old Testament and New Testament? If so, why? And, how is this (in your mind) of significant difference from Older Testament and Newer Testament? 5. And, can you explain to me the correct meaning of "plerosai"? And contrast it to the meaning espoused by Bahnsen and others that you believe is false? (which I assume you are referencing because it is the most debated word in the Matthew 5 text above) 6. In light of your belief that there is no continuity between the Mosaic covenant (which, again, I ask you to define what you mean, so we can have a meaninful discussion) and the Gospel, do you believe the Bible teaches this? or do you believe we can assume no continuity unless it is directly taught by the Bible? And, if you believe the Bible does teach no continuity at all between the Mosaic covenant and the Gospel, do you mind showing me what Scriptures you believe teach this? I ask these questions primarily to genuinely better understand your views, not primarily to debate or persuade. Respectfully, B8

Questions, questions, questions. And none do I wish to answer unless I believe that I can convince you that Christian Reconstructionism is not biblical. I'll tell you right now, that you cannot, for my entire life, convince me that Bahnsen and the "Christian Right" crowd are right. So, if we're at an impasse, why continue? If for your sake, I will trudge on. Otherwise, let's "agree to disagree" (::Joe cringes::) and move on to more beneficial subjects.

Oh, and can we use paragraphs? Large blocks of text like that make my brain hurt.

 I'm having a little bit of a hard time juggling work and writing, I'm sorry I didn't get back sooner. I agree that Adam's seems to rely heavily on reason and logic. And that he thought that Christianity had become corrupt (which may, or may not be a bad thing). However, based on some of these quotes, he seems to consider himself a Christian.


I always consider the settlement of America with reverence and wonder, as the opening of a grand scene and design in providence, for the illumination of the ignorant and the emancipation of the slavish part of mankind all over the earth. -John Adams

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other. -John Adams


Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, They may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies. -John Adams


I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution... It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe. -John Adams


The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore. -John Adams


I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of the other sect, who believe or pretend to believe that all is ordered by chance, I should believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate to all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization. -John Adams


Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents. -John Adams


I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation. -John Adams


Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge, I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers. -John Adams

Bahnsen8:

1. What ...
2. How
3. ... how ?... What ?
4. ... do you ? If so, why? And, how ...?
5. And, can you explain ...? And contrast it ..
6. ... do you believe ... or do you believe ? And, if you believe ..., do you mind

Respectfully, B8

It is as if B8 is a didelphimorphia, just got hit by an 18-wheeler, and his guts all spewed out!!

Joe Napalm:

Otherwise, let's "agree to disagree" (::Joe cringes::) and move on to more beneficial subjects.

Like jelly donuts!

WesleySonofCornelius:

It is as if B8 is a didelphimorphia, just got hit by an 18-wheeler, and his guts all spewed out!!

Hee hee hee!

Justin,

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be be Christians as well.  Like them, Adams denied the trinity.  Jesus was not LORD to him.  Go read that link on Monroe that Joe had posted a while back.  It sheds some good light on the religious environment of Adams' day.

I think I've figured out where the "processor" went haywire. I think its the ... wait for it ... presuppositions. I'll blog about it. Give me until tomorrow.

 I have read that article. Where did Adams deny the trinity or Jesus?

Joe Napalm:

I think I've figured out where the "processor" went haywire. I think its the ... wait for it ... presuppositions. I'll blog about it. Give me until tomorrow.

Alright, this will be interesting! When you write please remember, everybody has presuppositions... (Yep, even you, Wesley, and me...)

::sigh::

WesleySonofCornelius:

As for Adams, read carefully his words:

"The human understanding is a revelation from its maker which can never be disputed or doubted. There can be no skepticism, incredulity, or infidelity here. No prophecies, no miracles are necessary to prove the celestial communication. This revelation had made it certain that two and one make three, and that one is not three nor can three be one. We can never be so certain of any prophecy, or the fulfillment of any prophecy, or of any miracle, or the design of any miracle, as we are from the revelation of nature, that is, nature’s God, that two and two are equal to four. Miracles or prophecies might frighten us out of our wits, might scare us to death, might induce us to lie, to say that we believe that two and two make five, but we should not believe it; we should know the contrary.  Had you and I been forty days with Moses on Mount Sinai, and admitted to behold the divine glory, and there been told that one was three and three one, we might not have had the courage to deny it, but we could not have believed it. The thunders and the lightnings and the earthquakes and the transcendent splendors and glories might have overwhelmed us with terror and amazement, but we could not have believed the doctrine. We should be more likely to say in our hearts—whatever we might say with our lips—“This is chance.  There is no God, no Truth. This is all delusion, fiction, and a lie, or it is all chance.... God has infinite wisdom, goodness, and power; he created the universe; his duration is eternal ... his presence is as extensive as space. It is said that he created this speck of dirt—the earth—and the human species for his glory. And then, the orthodox theologians say, he chose to make nine-tenths of our species miserable forever, for his greater glory.  Now, my friend Jefferson, can prophecies and miracles convince you or me that infinite benevolence, wisdom, and power created and preserves for a time, innumerable millions, only in the end to make them miserable forever, and for no other purpose than his own glory? Wretch! What is glory? Is he ambitious? Does he want promotion? Is he vain, tickled with adulation, exulting and triumphing in his power and the sweetness of his vengeance? Pardon me, my Maker, for these awful questions…but I believe no such thing. My adoration for the author of the universe is too profound, too sincere. The love of God and his creation—delight, joy, triumph, exultation in my own existence—are my religion.  The Calvinist, the Athanasian divines ... will say I am no Christian. I say they are no Christians, and there the account is balanced." (Adams to Jefferson, 1813)

Like I said, read his words carefully. 

I'll read it again, I don't recall him renouncing the trinity there...

You are definitely right Joe! It seems like the whole concept of absolutes is disappearing these days.