The Sovereignty of God

Last post 06-07-2007 8:40 PM by Bahnsen8. 23 replies.
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  • 05-28-2007 6:49 AM

    The Sovereignty of God

    Does He purposely control every aspect of our lives? Does man have a say in his own personal salvation? What do you believe? Can you back it up with scripture?

    Bahnsen8:

    Romans 11:36 "For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."

    This is the most succint summary of the doctrine of God's total sovereignty over "all things." What is there that is not a part of "all things"?

    According to the Bible, does fallen man retain a free will?

    This is great to discuss such weighty matters about the nature of God. Let's continue to go about it with a spirit of humility toward one another and glad submission to His Holy Word. It may even be better to start a new thread and see if others are interested, now that this tangent from the initial thread is established.


    LAAIW#%%3@

    www.ladyabigail90.blogspot.com
    www.youtube.com/LadyAbigail90
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  • 05-28-2007 7:48 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Lady Abigail,

    Oh, if all the youth of today were as honestly eager for truth as you! As an adult Christian man with a wife and 6 children of my own, I want you to know that instruction in these types of discussions belongs first to your father. If you discuss this issue with your father, and he allows for our discussion to continue, then I will gladly share with you what the Bible has to say about the glorious, all-encompassing sovereignty of our Holy and Almighty Heavenly Father.

    Respectfully,

    Matt

    The existence of God is proven by the impossibility of the opposite. GB
    • Post Points: 35
  • 05-28-2007 4:00 PM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    All;

    I have been thinking about this topic for quite a while, but this discussion has prompted me to put my thoughts down on paper. The draft below has a couple rough edges and is certainly not exhaustive, but I believe it makes sense. I will greatly appreciate your thoughts, suggestions, and corrections for it!

    -Robur


    Bible verses which seem to indicate God is in control of everything:
    Isaiah 45:7:            "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
    Jeremiah 10:23:        "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."
    Lamentations 3:37:    "Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?"
    Romans 11:36:        "For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."
    Romans 8:29:        "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
    1 Peter 1:2:            "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
    Revelation 13:9:        "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
    Revelation 17:8:        "...they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..."

    Bible verses which seem to indicate that man is capable of decision making:
    Genesis 2:17:        "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
    Genesis 3:6:            "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
    Mark 16:15:            "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
    2 Peter 3:9:             "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
    Romans 10:13:        "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
    {Verses in the Bible where it speaks of people making bad decisions, verses which speak of God ordained punishment for when man makes bad decisions, etc}

    Bible Verses which seem to indicate God deliberately alters people's decisions (at least on occasion):
    John 12:40:            "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." ("He" Appears to be speaking of God, but I can not determine this to a certainty)
    Romans 9:            "16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

    Introduction:

    I am certainly open to correction, but my current understanding of the subject of man's ability to make decisions versus God being in control of everything is based upon some of the core concepts of Einstein's theory of special relativity. The main idea is that God, operating out of our "space-time continuum", "predestinated" every event that would occur in the universe by his creation of it and is therefore in complete control of it, and yet also endowed man with the ability to make choices and be responsible for their consequences.

    Picture this hypothetical example:

    I construct a magnet train railway system with one entrance, and a maze of tracks running in all directions. One "straight and narrow" track leads to an area above, and millions of other tracks all eventually reach the edge of the table the railway is constructed on and plunge off into an abyss. The tracks are all connected by millions of nodes. The railway system is populated by a vast number of trains, each of which is in motion toward one of the two destinations.

    Based upon this example, we can make two interesting observations:

    1) By creating the railway system, I have limited all the trains to one of two destinations.
    2) By creating trains limited to one of two destinations, I have "predestined" each train to a destination. (The fact that I, in the position of railway designer, may not know which destination any specific train will eventually reach in no way lessens this fact.)

    Converting our example to reality:

    1) The trains represent people.
    2) The designer represents God.
    3) The nodes in the railway system represent the choices each of us make during our lives.
    4) The two destinations the railway system leads to are heaven and hell, the two final resting places God has prepared for inhabitation over the duration of eternity.
    5) Since God has created, and is outside of, our time dimension, God is fully capable of existing in what for us would be the past, present, and future.
    6) Since God is all powerful and has complete access to any location in time, at the time of creation God was fully aware of the final destination of each human being he created.

    A further logical observation becomes available in the "reality" scenario:

    3) God, by knowingly creating people headed for a certain destination, "predestined" each individual person to the destination they would eventually reach.

    Conclusion by simplifying our logical chain of arguments:

    1) God created humans with one of two possible destinations
    2) By his action of creation, God "predestined" humans to a destination.
    3) By his foreknowledge of the destination of each human he created, God "predestined" each one of us to the destination our decisions will eventually lead us to. It is completely possible logically to say that God is in complete control of, and even planned, every event that will ever happen, and to say that man is capable of making decisions.

    Notes:

    1) Some people believe that since God has "pre condemned" some to heaven and some to hell, witnessing is unnecessary. This is illogical, and is in direct contradiction to many Bible verses such as Mark 16:15. The fact that some people are pre condemned shouldn't prevent us from witnessing, but rather we should tell everyone "Don't end up being one of those who were pre-condemned - trust Jesus today!"

    Unanswered questions / further research:

    1) The Bible clearly indicates that God can deliberately affect our decisions for better or for worse. Is this done only on occasion, or is every decision we make the result of active intervention from God?
    2) The concept of complete randomness does not exist in the material physical universe. For example, it is possible to predict the exact number a dice will land on using a model that takes into account placement of individual air molecules and their movement, the exact properties of the surface the dice would land on, and many other parameters. Even though it may be impossible for us to construct a mathematical model this accurate, God most certainly can! A very interesting question is whether the human mind is actually capable of making completely random decisions, or whether the decisions we make are based merely on billions of environmental factors. It would seem that the former is the case, because if the latter were true then God would necessarily be the author of the evil that happens in our world by having created the environment in such a way as to lead to all the horrible actions which people have committed in our world - which the Bible directly contradicts.
    3) Why did God create lucifer knowing he would become satan? God created lucifer with a free will to accept or reject him, just like he created humans. When lucifer chose to reject his creator, as we discussed above, even though God "predestined" it, it was a choice of free will on lucifer's part.

    AubreyFalconer.com - Aubrey's fundamental law of efficiency: Productivity = Cumulative Talent / involved personnel
    • Post Points: 25
  • 05-28-2007 4:10 PM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Well compiled, Robur! That was a wonderful post. Very well researched, and you did a great job summing it up.
    JBR
    "If God be for us, who can be against us?"


    • Post Points: 15
  • 05-28-2007 4:30 PM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Bahnsen8:

    Lady Abigail,

    Oh, if all the youth of today were as honestly eager for truth as you! As an adult Christian man with a wife and 6 children of my own, I want you to know that instruction in these types of discussions belongs first to your father. If you discuss this issue with your father, and he allows for our discussion to continue, then I will gladly share with you what the Bible has to say about the glorious, all-encompassing sovereignty of our Holy and Almighty Heavenly Father.

    Respectfully,

    Matt



    Thank you! Yes, I am aware of that, and I have discussed these things with my Dad and doubt that he would have any problem with me discussing them with you. However I have to admit that while I have studied (and learned from my Dad) about this subject I have not done a thorough enough study of it to be able to debate it with anyone, especially a grown man who no doubt has lived alot longer than I have! I also am VERY busy sewing, studying and preparing for our trip to Jamestown. Obviously I didn't really take any of these into account when I jumped into this conversation. I'm thinking that I will probably be a little outnumbered here, and while that's not a problem right now I really don't have the time to thoroughly study the facts. I don't think my Dad (or I) would be too thrilled with the idea of me trying to debate this subject with several other people without having a clear grasp of what I'm talking about. In that sitution it would be a piece of cake for anyone to come up with something that I can't answer because I don't have time to get out my Bible and my concordance etc. and find one!:) My apologies for starting all of this and then having to bow out.:( I love debates and I really need to become more familiar with this subject, but I'm going to have to keep a very low profile in this thread for now at least.:(
    LAAIW#%%3@

    www.ladyabigail90.blogspot.com
    www.youtube.com/LadyAbigail90
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  • 05-28-2007 7:26 PM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Fabulous discussion. I appreciate Lady Abigail's humility when she admits the depth of study necessary to do this topic justice. After all, we are talking about the attributes of our Holy Father, so we should tread together here with trembling and fear, clinging first to our oneness in Christ, knowing that He is pleased as we work together to know Him better.

    I also appreciate robur's great effort to reconcile what appears to be the most difficult aspect of this discussion: How can God be totally sovereign AND man be responsible and culpable for sin? These two ideas appear to be irreconcilable, on the surface. As I have studied and meditated on this, one of the biggest moments for me was realizing that it is only God's Creative Sovereignty that can establish man's responsibility to obey.

    More to come. I, too, am busy.

    Rejoice in the Lord always,

    Matt

    The existence of God is proven by the impossibility of the opposite. GB
    • Post Points: 25
  • 05-29-2007 7:47 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    "The LORD is not slack concerning HIS promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

    Those who hold to the predistiny of man should be reminded GOD is not willing that any should perish,  Salvation is very possible for every person. HE has predistined mankind to dwell with HIM in heaven, it is by choice "free will" that a person can deny (Blasphemy the Holy Spirit).  This is a very favorite topic for me.

    What is the book of life? what is the Lamb's book Life? is there a difference? Who's names are written within?

    Fidei defensor

    Istvan
    • Post Points: 25
  • 05-31-2007 10:48 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Istvan brings up some of the more frequent concepts supporting the typical Arminian view (which by the way, is the typical Roman Catholic view as well). "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" II Peter is addressed to believers. The idea expressed in II Peter 3:9 is in reference to the elect.

     Furthermore, the idea of free choice exists only in the sinless and redeemed state. Man's will (along with every other faculty) is corrupted by sin, rendering him unable to see or choose God (see Jesus' words to Nicodemus in John 3- Jesus leaves no room for man's choice as the initiative in salvation.)

     Great discussion!!

    In Christ with you,

    Matt

    The existence of God is proven by the impossibility of the opposite. GB
    • Post Points: 25
  • 05-31-2007 2:29 PM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Ma'am,

    While I tend to agree with you on the fact that it was not God's perfect will for the South to lose the WNA, However there are some good points given by others. My opinion is that there is God's perfect will, and there is God's permissive will. God's perfect will was Adam never eating that fruit, and everyone living in Eden. However, that didn't happen. It wasn't God's perfect will for Kings to have numerous wives, however, God permitted it.

    I believe that even though God choses you to become one of the fold of God, you have to accept him. We do not controll EVERY aspect in our lives, however we do controll most. And remember, just because it happened, doesn't mean it was in God's perfect will.

    May God Bless the South!

    The consolidation of the States into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.
    ~General Robert E. Lee
    • Post Points: 15
  • 06-04-2007 5:50 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    "Arminian to the right and Calvinism to the left, what of those in the middle?"

    Please, if this is too harsh let me know.

    Matt, brings forth the "typical" stereo typing of those who do not hold to the "predestination" view point: if one, such as I, does not subscribe to the idea of a particular type of predestination then I must be labeled Arminian and even Catholic.  History show two of the major Catholic theologians (Augustine and Aquinas) held views very close to that of the Calvinist. I humbly ask if 2 Peter is address to believers, which book then is address to the unbeliever? Mark maybe, or the writing of Luke? Let’s not forget Matthew? But for the sake of discussion, what if there is no "New Testament" what does the Hebrew text (Old Testament) teach?  Are only the Jews the elect? Why would the Almighty allow Rahab the Harlot of Jericho or Ruth the Moabite be numbered with the elect?  Were the Children of Israel Arminian or followers of Calvin?  (Yes, I am using rhetoric and sarcasms.)It is the law which condemns a person, it is when that person repents of their lawlessness does the Holy Spirit (John 3) brings them to confessing with their mouths that "Jesus Is LORD" does Justification occurs.  A believer is sanctified as they grow. Glorification is when they no longer dwell on this earth.Justification - Sanctification - Glorification : three terms with tree separate and independent time lines in the life of a believer.

     

    When Christians over emphasize human decision they lose sight of their dependence upon GOD. Christianity then becomes a demanding moral code, (legalelism is it's extreme) but it loses contact with Christ's work to redeem people who are unworthy of it. This process is called "Pelagian", after Pelagius, a monk who by legend taught this position.

    When Christians over emphasize GOD's responsibility they lose sight of the need for their lives to be transformed, and to be active in working with others. Some have refer to it as Calvinism.

    GOD Knows all - A man journeys down a road and comes to a "Y" This man does not know what lies neither to the right nor to the left, but GOD knows.  If, the man chooses the right GOD knows what the man shall experience. If, the man goes left, GOD knows the circumstances which will occur in the man's travel. GOD knows, man chooses.

    Please, if this is too harsh let me know

     
    Fidei defensor

    Istvan
    • Post Points: 35
  • 06-04-2007 9:44 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    VERY good post, Mr. Istvan.

    May God Bless the South!

    The consolidation of the States into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.
    ~General Robert E. Lee
    • Post Points: 25
  • 06-04-2007 9:56 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

     Amen! I am also one of those who is definitely neither Arminian nor Calvist!

    LAAIW#%%3@

    www.ladyabigail90.blogspot.com
    www.youtube.com/LadyAbigail90
    • Post Points: 25
  • 06-04-2007 10:05 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Me as well. This is one of the FEW things that I am right up the middle on :D. Usually I'm HEAVILY partisan to either side :D.

    May God Bless the South!

    The consolidation of the States into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.
    ~General Robert E. Lee
    • Post Points: 15
  • 06-04-2007 10:49 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    Not too harsh at all, my friend Istvan. Please excuse my lack of clarity in the prior post. In no way did I intend to fully categorize your personal viewpoint on this issue. By referring to Arminian and contemporary Catholicism, I did not intend to group you or stereotype you- for in truth I have not conversed enough with you to know all your views on this issue. Please forgive me.

    My intention was to categorize the argument you used, not to stereotype you. Now that you have shared more of your views on this issue, I believe I do have a better understanding of your perspective, and I am willing to move forward, with trembling and fear, in the hope that God will maintain and strengthen the bond of Christ betwen us during this most convicting of conversations, and that God might use the words that follow to encourage all who read them.

    In response to your question regarding to whom certain books of the Bible are addressed: In the opening of II Peter, Peter himself defines to whom he is writing. About other books of the Bible, especially New Testament texts, often the author clearly states to whom he is writing. Other books are not as clear about the intended audience. In any case, no sound student of the Scriptures would argue that the intended audience is meant to FULLY restrict the application to only that audience. But, in some cases, knowing the audience sheds significant light on understanding the text. My point is that, in this text, knowing the intended audience greatly clarifies the meaning of the text, especially given the grand momentum of God's sovereignty in all things that we see throughout the Scriptures.

    Regarding your suggestion to pretend the New Testament does not exist: This is an odd idea to me. The continuity of the Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, is a major foundation for sound Biblical exegesis. We must allow the Scriptures to interpret itself for us. II Timothy teaches us that "all Scripture is God-breathed", so we look to the entirety of God's Word for direction. We do see God gradually unveiling the fulness of His plan, like a rose blooming, so that Jesus Christ appears in the fullness of time to fulfill and establish the victory of God in the earth.

    Does the Old Testament teach the foreknowledge and predestinating initiative of God in all things? Well, Paul uses the Old Testament to teach these very points: Romans 9 is one of God's thunderous answers to His creatures' cries of "free will" and "that's not fair". Read verses 10-18 below and tell me how you can conclude anything other than the initiative of God as the only fount of His unconditional election of His saints.

    10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    Pretty clear, God has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. Thus, salvation does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. Not fair, right? This is the cry of the ages from a rebellious, fallen race. Well, keep reading in Romans 9 for God's response to that cry. Read verses 19-26 below for God's answer to "that's not fair."

    19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

    “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
    and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
    26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
    there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

    When the sinful flesh is confronted with a God like this, it looks for any way out, any way to maintain some semblance of control. Instead, we must be like Job, who when he was confronted with the Almighty, Sovereign God of the universe, could only repent in dust and ashes. God says to Job's foolishness in 42:11 "Who has first given to me, that I should repay him?
    Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine."

    Job finally sees his folly and can only respond thus: (42:1-6)

    Then Job answered the Lord and said:“I know that you can do all things,
    and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
    Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
    ‘Hear, and I will speak;
    I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
    I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
    but now my eye sees you;
    therefore I despise myself,
    and repent in dust and ashes.”

    In regards to your thoughts that over-emphasizing the responsibility of God will decrease a man's vision for a transformed life, where do you get this famous idea? It is nowhere to be found in Scripture. The opposite is true. Look again at John 3. There, if you will have ears to hear, you will understand that fallen man absolutely cannot SEE the kingdom of God, much less ENTER the kingdom, unless he is FIRST born from above, of the Spirit. When a man is utterly DEAD and totally unaware of his eternal and hellishly tortuous plight, and then GOD moves in and AWAKENS that man, spares that man only because of His mercy, THEN when the man sees the depths from which he has been rescued, IT IS PRECISELY THAT AWARENESS in the reborn soul that is the deepest motive of all to then be transformed, sanctified, in fulness, body and soul, for His glory.

    By no means were you harsh, my friend.

    This thunderous truth of the Sovereignty of God in all things is crucial because if we go wrong here, the trajectory of our thoughts is spoiled from the start. Please understand that as a brother in Christ, I view myself as fighting for you and your family in this conversation. I am for you, and it is precisely that which motivates me to speak against the false ideas of God that you are espousing. Please accept my words as from a friend who cares for you and who once believed as you.

    Respectfully,

    Matt

    ps- And we haven't even plunged into Ephesians 1 and 2, yet!!

     

    The existence of God is proven by the impossibility of the opposite. GB
    • Post Points: 25
  • 06-05-2007 5:08 AM In reply to

    Re: The Sovereignty of God

    The false ideas of GOD that I am espousing, Matt what would those ideas be? Will these ideas lead to hell?  Do you see these ideas coming from a person who may not be part of the elect? 

    The First century Church did not have a complete "New Testament," the Scripture they had was the Hebrew text.  Today we do have Genesis through Revelation and I will defend this as Holy writ, inspired by GOD.Proper exegesis would have us to test all scripture against scripture.  You quote Romans 9:10-26, this was written by Paul to the saints in Rome, thus the verses apply to believers, those who are saved, those who are called, the elect. Yet Paul says to the saints "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10-18) and these are not new words but he pulls them from the Hebrew Text. He also says to the saints "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of GOD" (3:23) again quoting the Hebrew text.  For being saints, for being the elect they surely were ungodly, but wait Paul continues "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly...but GOD commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (5:6-12)  Is this ungodly only the elect? Or was Paul showing the Saints were they came from?  Did Paul exclude anyone?  He said all have sinned. What is sin and how does some one become a sinner? Is sin a choice? Or is it fore ordained in us to sin? Does GOD make us Sin? 

    What is sin?  Is it not the choice to violate the law? Oswald Chambers said "Conscience is the internal perception of GOD's moral law" Paul writes "Which shows the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness..." (2:15)

     

    What is the law? The Ten Commandments? The 613 laws of the Jews? The seven Noahic laws? How about the two Jesus mentioned: to love GOD, and to love others?  A person must choose to violate the law in order to become a sinner, thus sin is a choice, and we will clearly agree all have made the choice to sin, for the scripture without doubt says "all have sinned," including the elect.

     

    Paul inspiration continues with "for the wages of sin is death; but the gift of GOD is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD"(6:23) What is this gift? Is it not the grace and mercy of GOD, through the blood of Christ shed on Calvary?  How is a gift received? Does not one have to choose to receive the gift? "That if you shall confess with your mouth the LORD Jesus, and believe in your heart that GOD has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation...for whosoever call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved." (10:9-13) the second word is "IF" which indicates at least two possibilities, a person can choose to confess or they can choose not to confess. "whosoever" includes every person. What is the choice to be made? Call upon the Name of the LORD or not. It is a gift; one must choose to accept the gift.

     

    This does not take away the Sovereignty of GOD or the fact it is GOD who does the saving, man does not save himself.  GOD knows the out come of the choice, the choice of man is not the grace or the mercy that saves him, only the blood of Christ saves, man must choose to repent of his sin and call on the name of the LORD.  Clearly scripture shows "all," every person has the chance to be part of the elect.  We can not simple ignore the verses which does not fit our idea of GOD.  Yes, I admit GOD does know, but Matt, man has a choice. The scripture supports both position well, thus to emphasize GOD's all knowing power or Man's independence of decision, leads to disaccord and we should be of "one accord"

     

    We can discuss Ephesians 1 and 2, also the Esther and I Timothy but I am more concern about what what I must do to be saved, to be part of the elect? Matt please tell me.

     

     

    Fidei defensor

    Istvan
    • Post Points: 35
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